1855 ?Empire? Sofa - Please help with details!!!

[charles]

Hi! We are searching for information on the sofa in the pictures below.  It is very heavy, and when we had it re-upholstered, we saw the date 1855 and a name carved into the inside of one of the arms.  The name I cant completely remember, but I think it was J. Zilch, or J. Zilsh or something similar - too bad I didnt document that better.  The seat cushion and throw pillows feel like they are goose-down filled.  The prior fabric on the sofa was silk-like and reddish-pink & gold in color.

Whatever information you can supply would be greatly appreciated.  This sofa came with our old house (1911) when we bought it - and I dont have any historical information about it.  Also, do you have any idea of its value?

Thanks so much!
Charles

[Rare Victorian]

1855 seems on the late side for Empire furniture so I'm surprised by the date.  I couldn't find any sofas like yours, but since it is a pre-Victorian style (not the year, in this case), I don't have much reference material on that period save for a few general books and a Philadelphia-specific Empire book.  Maybe someone else does.  You can search "sold" lots on LiveAuctioneers.com for "empire sofa" and get some comparable prices.  Unfortunately, you won't be pleased.

[ThePeacockRoom]

I agree with RV that 1855 seems a little late for an Empire sofa, although it is certainly within the realm of possibility... a cabinetmaker working to the taste of a specific regional clientele would happily accede to their whims and desires, no matter what the prevailing style of the day. (For example, I believe the shop of Matthew Egerton in New Brunswick, NJ, produced kasten as late as the 19th century, for the large, conservative and well-heeled Dutch-descended population of the area.)

Could the four-digit number denote something other than a date? It could be a style/catalog number, or a partial address.

[charles]

So, you dont think its Empire, but you think its Pre-victorian?  Can anyone help with sites to search?  Is there a Philadelphia sofa makers list somewhere?

What is kasten?

I defintely think the 4 digit number is the date.  The way it was carved into the wood, was done freehanded, and looks just like the way an artist signs a carving (only it was large because it's on a large space).

Would someone be willing to take a guess at value?

[Rare Victorian]

It's Empire style.  1855 is like 15 years after then end of the bulk of that period, however.  Just seems a bit odd.

Value is probably in the $150-$400 range due to the simple form.

More complex Empire sofas garner more like this one.  As I mentioned before, the prices are all here at this link.

[ThePeacockRoom]

What is kasten?

http://www.artnet.com/Magazine/FEATURES/garrett/garrett2-14-00.asp

[ThePeacockRoom]

It's Empire style.  1855 is like 15 years after then end of the bulk of that period, however.  Just seems a bit odd.

Or early 20th century Empire Revival, perhaps? That would coincide with the date of the house (c. 1910) that came with the sofa. 

[jacon4]

well, i am going to respectfully disagree here, to me, empire furniture was made in america for over 100 years. the first period or during the federal period was more classical in design with lots of carving and paw feet, the second period, say 1850 thru 1900 i refer to as pillar & scroll with little or no carving.

[Rare Victorian]

Cool, I learned something today.  This is technically "Late Classicism" (aka Pillar and Scroll as James says).  Empire is the label used on this furniture so often that I never felt the need to question it.  Everyone gets it wrong as this site mentions: "Some authors do not distinguish between Empire and Late Classical, regarding late Classical simply as Empire."

More on these periods/styles at the links below:
Empire - 1820-1840
Late Classicism - 1835 - 1850

Therefore an 1855 date is not unusual for this "Late Classical" sofa.

"Remember Empire was the second chapter of the Classical movement. The first was American Neoclassical (Federal). The third and last chapter of the Classical era is called “Late Classicism,” and while it is based loosely on Empire and classical designs, it is a unique style all to itself and represents the transition in American furniture-making from the handmade shop to the machine-driven factory in the 1830s."

More information here: "Late Classicism Antiques: Not Empire"

[woodwright]

I too now stand informed. Thanks to Jacon4 for pointing out the difference, and RV for his research and concise/ informative links to help clarify the distinction between the styles. Very informative reading.
I like many/ most others have seen (both in print & in person) - hundreds or thousands of "Late Classicism" pieces (such as the sofa pictured here) labeled as "Empire", and have consequently misunderstood and misidentified them myself. There is clearly a difference in design and style, and in actuality very little of what is defined as "Empire" truly fits the category because it is fairly rare, made mostly as one off pieces - ornate w/ carving, ormolu, and gilding and thus pricey.
Thanks for the info.     

[Peakangus]

This was a great discussion and cleared up a lot of misconceptions I had about this period..most of what I see out there as "empire" furniture in auction and other descriptions is in fact Late Classical or Empire Revival--thanks to the team for a job well done in education!  Charles.

[Canadian maple]

I think that the seat and back upholstery of this sofa was completely remodeled in the 20th century, adding the cushions and covering the faces of the arms with fabric.  This made the sofa look like the new sofas available in the 1940s and 1950s.  I believe if the upholstery is removed from the faces of the arms you will find crotch grain mahogany veneer.

Late classical or late empire is the term I use for sofas like this.  In Germany and Scandinavia it would called Biedermeier.  John Hall's Cabinetmaker's Assistant (1840) is the bible for American late classical design.  Unfortunately I don't have a copy to check to see if this design is included.

I do not think that 1855 is too late a date for this sofa.  If a design was popular it stayed in production for a few years.  Still I would have dated it as c. 1845 if it were not for the carved date.  Are you sure you read the year properly?

Here is a link to the Stevens Auction Co.  They are showing a sofa of comparable form but with all the bells and whistles.    http://www.stevensauction.com/may%20auction%20web/index.htm

I'm attaching pics of two sofas - one has a similar back and one has similar arms.  Both are sofas that were for sale on eBay, the first from North Carolina and the second from Maryland